A Message for The Regulars

[PixelPixie]

Message board regulars,

I need to express my feelings here to you, as a group, without getting too long-winded as you know I can.

One of the least satisfying aspects of maintaining quality control at ModPhx is patching up public relations with new members who have been burned in their first post. I check the boards a dozen times a day and am often already working things out with violators or the burned in a supportive, neighborly way.

If I haven't deleted a post yet, it is probably for good reason -- largely to encourage the newcomer how to delete their own post, or to engage the spirit of message boards by correcting, amending or extending their initial posts.

I don't appreciate all my hard moderating efforts being neutralized or obliterated by disparaging and sarcastic comments. The practice saddens me. Public ridicule is not what I built this place for. There are other forums where this is tolerated, but not here. How initiatory hazing even became acceptable internet behavior in the first place is beyond me.

After everyone has a chance to get to know each other and their intent and ability, let the sparring begin. You know I'm all for a good and fair debate. Attacking newcomers? Unacceptable. More often than not, they simply don't know better. I prefer for them to clean up their own mistakes than to have their noses rubbed in it. It's Education 101, not to mention just plain courteous.

So in short, I hope that members can now leave the moderating to the Moderators.

Do the ModPhx system and our limited resources a favor and go easy on the influx of new members we have been receiving this month -- and any time for that matter. It is much more constructive to help them out and point them in the right direction than to ridicule them -- and then I don't have to personally clean up the fallout, either. Fallout cleanup takes a LOT of my energy and as a working mom running all of this nonsense on a shoestring, scotch tape and sheer gumption, you know I don't have a lot of energy to spare.

You're right. I don't HAVE to clean up. You're absolutely right.

So I'll leave it to your imagination what this place would become if we didn't uphold any standards or values.

[modernenthusiast]

I am not trying to challenge these comments in any way- I am just curious as to what has happened in that Alison felt she needed to post these frustrations. I have not been checking the board like I used to, but it doesn't seem to me that there has been anything as of recent to warrant this post- I know this has been building for some time, but I thought it would have come much earlier. I am curious if I have missed something or if this has just been an ongoing draft of Alison's that she finally just posted. Ganging up on tileboy seems to me to be the most obvious abuse of a new member, but what recently has happened? I can't see the sarchastic remarks or the moderating of the board by members, but if I am just missing it, please give me a hypothetical example (as to not embarass anyone) so I don't fall into that same category. It seems to me that a lot of the hazing has stopped on its own.

[PixelPixie]

You are right that the hazing of newbies has generally died down. But we also haven't had very many new people posting without thinking lately, either. Things have been going well. People are also tentative to join, which is another topic altogether.

Without getting into specifics, a stick and stucco listing made its way into the Marketplace, and I left it there on purpose in order to train the postee how to delete and manage their own posts. I thought hey, they're trainable, lets try something new for a change. Well, I woke up the next day to some relipes that I thought were disparaging, (plus thankfully some helpful comments, too, which did little to neutralize the postees justified shock). The postee got very upset and really only made an innocent mistake of not knowing where they were or what we are. Here I was trying to help someone acclimate, and all my moderating efforts got shot to hell.

Typically this would never have happened because we delete off-topic posts very quickly before too many eyeballs have a chance to see it or respond. This is why you guys see so little drama. Well, the other day I left one up a little too long, I guess. :-/

I found the fallout caused by our very own members to be discouraging. My feelings on the subject are very complex. People keep telling me I shouldn't care about the actions of others, but I do. I built this place to feel like a neighborhood and some days it simply doesn't feel all that friendly.

I plan to delete this post after we've all had some time to think about it. I'd like to forget it ever happened.

[modernlover]

Well, for example, I'm one of those who made a snotty comment, and in hindsight, I'm thinking "What the hell made you do that?". Pretty childish, actually, and I feel like a heel. Let it suffice to say that amends HAVE been made to the original poster - and were made BEFORE Alison posted this thread. Hopefully, the poster will come back, but I wouldn't blame them if they didn't.

[modernenthusiast]

Ok- so- off topic posts I can understand...but many opinions are snotty. Some people like these things, some people like those things; some people have strong opinions about a particular subject, while others could care less. It seems difficult to encourage discourse sic disagreement- polite disagreement is simply repressed (and dumb- just my opinion however) - I usually can see through polite words and I definitly can loook at a person and know if they are angry. Without visual cues here, discussion is the venue of communication- words are expressed in place of gestures or expressions. There isn't anyone monitoring life outside the boards- so why monitoring here? - Why not simply guiding?

Monitoring can be a good thing, but again, restricting what people can and can't do does not solicit open discussion or an honest opinion. The anonymity of these boards is what make them so interesting- a person's guard comes down and what they think comes out. If someone new just pops on and is offended and then never returns again, then what does that say about that person? They probably don't read and research things before they say something (if they had reead the board they would have known the hard time they might get), impulsive, sensitive, and don't feel strongly enough about their opinion to stick up for themselves- instead they run to the moderator and cry then never come back. Not a big loss in my opinion. Someone recently pointed out to me that the modern living board is brutal- and it thrives! People want to hear extremes- I know it is hard when one is the target, but this is anonymous! Who is that fragile to have someone on a board disagree with them or tease them and they are devestated enough not to come back- probably someone who doesn't engage in good discourse because they back down to disagreement-they are not an asset to a board that is based on discussion.

What is the difference here between monitoring and censorship? One is being told what they can and can't discuss. I suppose that just the focus on one topic would be a type of censorship- but that censorship seems boundless within the topic- and the limits are understood by those who wish to participate. Limits about what they can say about that topic then becomes restrictive.

"As to the evil which results from censorship, it is impossible to measure it, because it is impossible to tell where it ends."- J. Benthem

So are we suppossed to be more "pc" in our arguements? Is politeness the goal? I don't know how enforcement of repressing expression can encourage the truth.

"Political correctness is really a subjective list put together by the few to rule the many -- a list of things one must think, say, or do. It affronts the right of the individual to establish his or her own beliefs"


I come to this board for a lot of reasons and again I have to say that monitoring should end at topic areas. The more rules that are inflicted, the narrower the discussion will get- yet I don't think the narrow discussion will focus on architecture- to be overtly dramatic, it might become a lot of repressed , fragile individuals who can't stand conflict and probably say thank you too much.
I see no fun in that.

[PixelPixie]

The thread in question was doomed to deletion because it was off-topic in the first place. It's extreme to confuse that with censorship.

In addition, however, I personally do not feel good about tolerating hate speech. There are lines that need to be drawn. Let's not confuse the United States of America and protected speech with the local standards of a privately owned and operated message board.

Just curious. Do any of you here have any practical experience in moderating message boards? Not high school debate, not family arguments, not couples counseling -- but actual physical message board monitoring?

[michaelv]

As a relatively new member, here are some thoughts to those that have been in this space for a while...

There is nothing wrong with disagreement. However, there is also nothing wrong with being polite.

It seems a bit of a farce to suggest that the boards are anonymous and promote freedom of expression if regularly posting members are ignored or encouraged when derogating a new posting member just because of a difference of opinion or for asking a question that is 'inappropriate'. To me that sounds more like hazing new members to make sure they are 'committed' and 'worthy' of being part of the community as well as scaring away those that simply 'don't belong here'.

In the 'real world', we generally think before telling someone they are stupid, wrong, etc. Often this is due to politeness, sometimes due to the fact that the person may be a lot bigger than us. In meeting MoPho members at the home tour, everyone seemed extremely nice...but my impression of some individuals was skewed after reading their posts. In person I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor - but I am a bit careful about it as a lot of people are a lot bigger than me The point here being that communication is irreversible.

The person that gets turned off of the site might be an original owner of a pristine Haver or Beadle who wants to sell it to a MCM enthusiast rather than just make a ton of money on it (anyone see the recent article in Atomic Ranch with just this scenario?). In this case you could be taking a client away from our realtor members, taking an affordable home away from a fellow member, and giving the community a bad name.

[goredesignco]

I'm with ModernEnthusiast on this one. I found the phrase "If I haven't deleted a post yet, it is probably for good reason -- largely to train the newcomer how to delete their own post " a little concerning. I don't do well with being "trained", which is one of the many reasons I bid adieu to corporate America.

Rules are one thing, censorship is another. If someone posts an ad for a pill that will increase their " ", then of course, this ad should be deleted. But anything else, regardless if it makes some laugh and others cringe, should stay. I think ModernPhoenix can continue it's growth, but it needs to be a place for people to discuss all points of view.

[Circa50]

Here here!

[modernlover]

Actually, I'm with Alison on this one. I don't think she meant "trainable" in a literal sense.
This particular new poster, a total innocent, was not aware of certain rules (totally understandable), and got jumped by a bunch of attack dogs, so to speak, before Alison could get a word in edgewise. Alison corrected the situation, but I'm afraid the new poster might be feeling a little burned and might never return, which is NOT a good thing.
I, personally, shall refrain from opinions or comments until I see how any new posts play out.
Guys, I wouldn't beat this one to death. I have a feeling Alison might get really exasperated with trying to explain her position. We DO have a lot of freedom here, y'know..... And someone has to moderate.

[goredesignco]

Why does Allison need to get a word in edgewise to start with? To head off the impending, catastrophic, world ending crisis that someone may get their feelings hurt and never come back? If someone posts something that is out of place, and then subsequently is offended by the responses, and then turns their back on modernphoenix and goes into therapy... I'm ok with that. That's just me. I have conscientiously stayed out of the occasional modernphoenix drama (i.e. the avatar crisis of '06), but the trend towards censorship appears to be growing.

[modernlover]

Brandon, it's obvious you didn't see the post in question, so let me just say that in this particular case it was NOT censorship, okay?
I don't recall ANY censorship going on here. Maybe I missed something, but I highly doubt it. And the avatar thing isn't censorship, either.

[PixelPixie]

I find these concerns of censorship to indicate a deep lack of understanding by the general public of what it is that Moderators do. And that's okay. Unless you've been a moderator, you'd never have a chance to be exposed to the raw combination of politics and public relations that it takes to run successful message board forums.

From the feedback I'm getting, it appears that a link to the generally-wiki-world approved rights and responsibilities of a moderator is warranted again. (Did anyone read it in the first place?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_moderator

Hint: Moderating doesn't involve me being your friend, it involves me being objective. ;-D Deleting posts is a fundamental part of what moderators are expected to do. It involves upholding the principles of the community that are set locally. Did any of you miss the part where it ways it is up to each board to tolerate the levels of profanity, intensity, insanity, off-topicness that is appropriate for the tone of the community?

Given the private support mail I've gotten on this topic today, I have read some pretty passionate (and grateful) opinions about how its about time someone with backbone addressed the newbie hazing issue. I also find it telling that these messages were kept private. Hmm. It doesn't take a genius to ponder why that might be.

I keep on hearing from multiple face-to-face sources about what an intimidating environment ModernPhoenix is. "Join?!? Oh no, are you kidding? I'd get creamed there!" or "It took me months to get the courage to join." As you might imagine, this news causes my heart to leap with joy and makes me beam with endless pride that members have created a community that is mightily feared. (And Modern-e might want me to believe it was feared by the cowardly. No, it was by the intelligent, the creative, the insightful, the generous, the souls that make this city thrive. It kills me to hear about our intimidating reputation. It really does.)

Think I'm the only one out there deleting?

Here are some other sample Moderator guidelines from other forums:
http://www.matrixcommunity.org/rules/
(I like the quote from the movie at the top of this page - hilarious!)

http://www.well.com/confteam/hostmanual/section2.html#1
(At the Well, one of the oldest and most respected communities online, moderators are called Hosts)

"...knock-down, drag-out arguments, especially those involving personal insults, are nonproductive and can easily get to the point of dominating the interaction in discussions which might otherwise be, though controversial, potentially fruitful. Hosts can do a lot to keep the tone in their gathering places positive by making general ground rules which encourage courteous argumentation, and with reminders, when necessary, to "attack the idea, not the person" and to "take personal disputes to e-mail, please." "

Where does "content" end and "behavior" begin? I find personal attacks and hate speech to be not only inappropriate behavior, but above all inappropriate content. Animated avatars are inappropriate (and wasteful, off-topic) content. To mistake community standards for censorship is, in my opinion, a ridiculous claim. Perhaps I should post my community standards so each of you may decide individually whether or not you (generic you) agree to abide by them. Yay! Hooray! Rejoyce! Another three hours I get to spend writing another article that nobody will read until it is too late, and members may contend til the horse is not only dead but decomposing.

How about just the general suggestion that we all be nicer to newcomers? That's all I was asking for anyway.

It should be enlightening to note that of the 6870 articles posted on ModPhx in the last 2.5 years I have had to delete such a miniscule portion of them, I'm amazed we are even having this conversation about censorship in the first place.

As far as "training" semantics go, Brandon, this term was used in completely appropriate context. The poster in question was brand spanking new to message boards as a whole concept (yes, there are still folks like that out there, and some end up here) -- and since my guidance work with them had to be swift and interventive (reactionary to a bad situation rather than proactive to a positive one) I called it training. Nothing militant or corporate was implied by it. Context is everything, don't you think?

Baseball players train. Gymnasts train. You might even own a pair of training shoes. You certainly had a pair of training wheels. Anyone learning a complex new skill has to get trained at some point, even if is through self-training. In this context, I suspect any distaste for the word training might come from your own personal anti-corporate experience. In my world, where training is a positive learning experience, it carries no such stigma.

[goredesignco]

Agree to disagree

I admit that I reacted a little strongly to the word "trained", however, I think that modernenthusiast hit the nail on the head with "monitoring should end at topic areas".

[j-megirl]

LOVE THY MOPHO!! damn it!!