A Message for The Regulars

[modernenthusiast]

I read what moderators do. I read what they also don't do on some boards. This board is a public board in which Alison and Mathew began and consequently it is their decision as to what type of board it is. period. That doesn't mean I can't argue for what I want the board to be- even though I might not get it.

The problem lies in when a moderator doesn't like or agree with something and they have a right to control it- i.e. censor it-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censor.

Accordingly, censorship is about controlling( or maybe just moderating) the types and instances of human expression. That is where I believe my deep understanding may be miscommunicated here. Moderators on this board have usually been just and fair- and protective. Which is not a bad thing. The problem lies when rules are inflicted- yes, we should all practice politeness and kindness and examine necessity in what we say and do- but limiting what we can say before we even say it feels different to me than allowing it to be said and disagreeing with it or challenging it in its correctness or appropriateness. Control does not allow for expression, whereas maybe some type of censure, as oppossed to censor, may be effective in allowing for people to express themselves freely. It feels like this board does both- I don't mind the censure- some type of disagreement, but imposing rules on people, again before they have expressed themselves, does not provide an honest and open discourse . No, it is not kind or necessary to be impolite or simply rude to someone posting and more than likely it doesn't happen to people in everyday life, but it is still a right we have- I have to right to be a total ass to whomever I please as long as I do not physically harm them or threaten to harm them in any way. So I should have the right to tell someone that I think their house sucks if I want to- but if you tell me i can't say this before i say it, then I have no right to express myself freely.Which is censorship. If you tell me that I am a jerk for saying this after the fact, well then you too are expressing yourself freely while guiding what you believe this board should be about and not shunning me because I say dumb things or you don't agree with me. I would hate to see some of the regulars go away because they can't be who they are- even if some of the time I think they are behaving badly. I would like to see new people come on board- but not if is under the guise of controlling how people express themselves. Moderate should guide and comment. I don't think controlling will accomplish in the long run a free and open debate. I know architecture may not spawn the most heated opinions to surface, but discussions about rights and law and land and money...oh and realtors...always seem to get people heated. These are inherent in property, which underlies every discussion on this board. I am not often polite when it comes to rights or money- even in real life, and I wouldn't be able to stifle my opinion. Consequently, I wouldn't be able to post here freely. I like this board so that would not be a good thing.

[PixelPixie]

...limiting what we can say before we even say it feels different to me than allowing it to be said and disagreeing with it or challenging it in its correctness or appropriateness.

. . .

Control does not allow for expression, whereas maybe some type of censure, as oppossed to censor, may be effective in allowing for people to express themselves freely. It feels like this board does both- I don't mind the censure- some type of disagreement, but imposing rules on people, again before they have expressed themselves, does not provide an honest and open discourse .

Let me be absolutely clear on this point: There is no possible way I would limit or could control what you say before you say it. I can only make a request for community standards to be honored and upheld. Members are still free to say things as I am free to delete them. I am also free to delete accounts for continous violations of the terms of service. Luckily, I rarely have needed to do this and have never had to do this for one of our genuine members.

Technically I could require all posts to be approved before becoming public (this is something our database can do) but I think that is a ridiculous way to run a forum and I'd rather close the forum down if things ever got to that point, which members willing, it never will.

In the highly rare instances that it happens, just one avenue of censure for violating community standards (as you like the reprimand to be called) is deletion. It is not permamently wiped from our collective memory, we do not pretend it never happened. Whoever saw it saw it, and whomever didn't didn't. The idea lives on, the record of it doesn't. Life goes on.

I suspect that you may be assigning way too much preciousness to the permanence and importance of posts.

[PixelPixie]

No, it is not kind or necessary to be impolite or simply rude to someone posting and more than likely it doesn't happen to people in everyday life, but it is still a right we have.

Modern-E, you (and perhaps others) seem to be mistaken that message board users on privately-owned services have inalienable rights.

Message board users on privately-held services generally have privileges. Governments don't grant rights, they grant privileges, too.

As for the Right to Freedom of Speech, my understanding is that the strict upholding of this right really only exists to curb govermental supression of the right to expression. ModernPhoenix, though a cultural institution, is far from a government. Were ModernPhoenix.net owned by the city government, however, things would be quite different.

Here is one privately-held online forum's reponse to the Freedom of Speech issue:
http://www.nukeworker.com/policy/forum_rules.shtml
You may find it amusing (or alarming) that the forum referenced above does not tolerate "witty or smart remarks" except in designated areas. Makes our place look like Paradise, huh?

Here's another forum mod's sensible clarification of his message board being his private property (as ModPhx is mine) and how that is related to free speech
http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php

I refer all members unclear on this point to the Terms of Service that they agreed to when they clicked the "register" button and signed up for a ModernPhoenix account. This is the standard, unaltered user agreement that comes with every installation of phpBB (our database software) and I believe has been very well-crafted to dissuage any illusion of "rights" that entitle all posts to be permanent and all speech to be valid. You will find that this is very common practice for private services both small and large, as it is the first and final word that helps the Moderator perform within their job responsibilities in a hassle-free manner:

While the administrators and moderators of this forum will attempt to remove or edit any generally objectionable material as quickly as possible, it is impossible to review every message. Therefore you acknowledge that all posts made to these forums express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators, moderators or webmaster (except for posts by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered above being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent the webmaster, administrator and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

This forum system uses cookies to store information on your local computer. These cookies do not contain any of the information you have entered above; they serve only to improve your viewing pleasure. The e-mail address is used only for confirming your registration details and password (and for sending new passwords should you forget your current one).

By clicking Register below you agree to be bound by these conditions.

Compare to the America Online Terms of Service, where I cut my teeth in moderation over a decade ago:

We are not liable for Content that is provided by others. We have no duty to pre-screen Content. We reserve the right to remove Content for any reason, but we are not responsible for any failure or delay in removing such material.

Members, I would not spend any more energy being too terribly worried about what Modern-E calls "censorship" and I call "moderating" as threatening to hinder free and public discourse on these boards. As I have stated several times and has yet to be acknowledged, deletions are truly rare on these boards. I've participated on boards where deletion was a daily activity. We really do have it lucky. I can honestly think of only one distinct instance where I had to delete any message on ModPhx due soley to what I thought was defamatory/slanderous content, and this was years ago. All other deletions since then, to the best of my memory, originated as off-topic content.

[IHeartConcrete]

Can we be over this topic now? Seriously. The fact that almost all of the new posts in the last few days are posts/lectures on how posts SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be is slightly annoying. Everyone has been "informed" and points have been made and people get it....or not. Talking it to death doesn't help. Let's move on. PLEASE. How about addressing each issue as it comes up, with the individual(s) that caused the issue, instead of making it a board topic? (This post probably sounds harsher than I mean it to...I am just lacking in the tact department)

If anyone, well...any women, have any pent up anger, please feel free to email me about de-stressing at roller derby practice.

-sarah

p.s. I'd much rather see animated avatars on everyone's profile than read this thread anymore, and I know there are at least a few that agree with me.

[modernenthusiast]

Valid points Pixel. I agree with most of what you said.

Great point Sarah. I am about done too. I will totally be at roller derby practice tomorrow- I have lots of destressing to do.

[j-megirl]

can i come too?

[IHeartConcrete]

Yes you should. Really though, anyone that is interested, send me an email for practice info...Modern-e can vouch for the de-stressing value.

[MissMelissa]

In my opinion it seems that some have more sarcastic comments, made-up stories and general "douchebaggery" to contribute than anything at all relevant to modern architecture.... ever.
That, to me, is the biggest turn-off.
I also don't feel that these boards are "anonymous." I know where most of you regulars reside and what you look like via word of mouth or general MoPho sightings and I am sure you know of my husband and I. I feel that if you are using these boards to speak your opinions, positive or negative, you should do so with the intentions of owning up to them in person as well as doing so when hiding behind a screen name.
Other than that... differences of opinion is what makes a community a community. Otherwise, we would all be vying for homes with an HOA.
On the other hand.. it is Allison's world in which she created here at Modern Phoenix and she can do & say as she pleases.
~Melissa

[DG]

100% in agreement with Allison.

For me the board became this un-friendly place to share anything. If one "dare to disagree" with one of the regulars, he/she is eaten alive. It's like either you are with them or against them. Them who??? The only thing that we share is that some of us live in homes built in the 50's and 60's...that's it. The fact that most members of this site enjoy mid-century DOES NOT give anyone the right to own the truth, be sarcastic or feel superior about anything. I really don't feel this sense of belonging with most anyone of the members of the board.

Allison is doing a wonderful job of love with this website and it's a shame that she feels the way she does. It takes courage to stand up and set the record staight. If you like it and want to play by her rules you stay and if not, you are free to go and preach your truth somewhere else.

Way to go Allison and Mathew.

[Circa50]

DG, go crawl back under your rock. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[DG]

I knew you could not resist it. It's too easy. Thank you for proving my point.

[Circa50]

OK, go now, bye bye.

[DG]

YAAAAAAWWWWWN...boring.

[MrX]

I am sorry for that one time when that shark went after JC's dancing bear monster.

JC felt so unwelcome that he started his own message board/website. Then in retaliation I made my own Beadle website. Oh the humanity!

Also, we might want to consider eliminating some of the more threatening emoticons:

[goredesignco]

Ah! Circa50 and MrX! Finally, true "regulars" have returned to the message boards. I was getting a little concerned as I haven't seen much activity from the group of people that have made this board a success.